Just beautiful Robert ! I have just one objection: Sun[ Aadithya Bhagavan] is male in traditional ways. So "her children" looks little odd.Of course you can say, "sun is female in my mythogrammatical way"! I leave it open tentatively.
If you mean "earth's children" I have nothing to say, because earth is mother earth [ Bhoomi Devi] . But it is little confusing in this etymo-structural parable.
everyone has his or her own mythology, cultural memory, and social context from which to draw on.
The sun in this tanka became a woman ... one that nurtures ... providing nourishment, warmth, comfort, and much more. It can, as you say, be male in expression as well.
"everyone has his or her own mythology, cultural memory, and social context from which to draw on" ~ Surely about "cultural memory"[ seamless gestalts of pre-primordial cognitions of archetypes] and "social context"[ everchanging factors of socio economic niches] I have no objection of course. But about mythology there must be some regulating tradition~ or so i feel. You can't make Yin Yang and Yang Yin normally as long as they are Yin and Yang. This is my humble opinion. "Gender" is an intrinsic part of grammar in Sanskrit Tamizh and other Indian languages derived from these ancient languages. Mythologies and primal language(s) are so intimately interfused and so it is generally advisable not to change the gender of words. Of course "gender" is maintained in european languages too say "German" "Spanish" etc though not as animistically as in the ancient languages.
I think Robert is right to think of the nurturing sun as female. Myths support his stand. One of the phases of the sun, Dawn, is envoked in the Veda as a female; Savitri, too, comes from the Sun. So the archetypal and mythical connections of the sun could be female, as Robert seeks to convey.... Your initial response seems to me correct. Our creativity is now more intercultural than it was in the past. We should remain open to varieties of interpretations poets try to impose just as readers remain free to interpret as variously as their backgrounds permit.
Yasyaa Saa Saviturmai Saa Saavitri Devi Gaayathri ~ Saa Na Aadithya!
Ushaso Mahaadevi ~ Mahaa-maaya Jyotir mati Dharma Tarangini. Saa Na Arka:
Addithyo Bhagavaan rishi ~ Anthariksho Vyoma Kumbham ~ Nireekshaya Vishnu MaayaaRahasyam Paramaartham ~ Maa kuru ku-tarkam ~ tad asabhyam moodathvam mahaan ~ Prof Singh Mytholgy is not something you can manipulate to suit your tastes. They are divine revelations. I am writing Maha-Nyaasam For all the four Vedas in Sanskrit.Will you say beef filled white man's "science" can be anything any body wants it to be. You are using the divine word "mythology" in its crudest western connotation ~ Rtam Sathyam Pavitram.If you have scant respect for Religion, and if you think with Darwin that the Gods are creations of dull primitive people, it will be better for you to keep away from it all. I am amused by your erratic interpretation. "Savitri" and "Ushus" come from the Sun. They are not Aadithya. Please have a heart professor.
If I say "Lady Jesus Christ" it will be considered blasphemy and it is so to me too. Similarly, If you say "Mother Sun" it is crude and blasphemous to me.It hurts my religious sensitivity deeply.
please, it is okay to disagree....we must step outside of ourselves.....God can handle his own battles and doesn't need our assistance. One must remember that I am not a Hindu, although I do believe in some of its tenets. I also subscribe to some buddhist tenets as well. What I perceive in life is perceived through my own cultural memory and social context. Arguing will never solve a problem. It is only when we take the time to listen to the other and to wear the other's sandals will understanding and peace occur. My tanka is just that, a tanka. Tanka are not instruments of war. They are personal expressions. Let us drink tea together.
Surely, Robert, let us drink Darjeeling tea together and invite butterflies and the hidden GODS TOO! God(s) are involved in each detail and expression here on the earth in this seamless cosmos(es)..Without us there is no battle nor humour for the GOD(s)! We are the residual manifestation awaiting the Vast Revelations of an Apocalypse as revealed in all traditional religions. This is not an argument but a personal affirmation of an infinite faith and hope.About arguments, there is the hidden "intention" too that causes all problems. Otherwise, Vincit Omnia Veritas and Truth, Rtam will simply pervade all over. About wearing other's sandals to see their perspective, i will not want to do it on various occassions for obvious reasons. For eg. If a child abuser is arguing in defence of his deeds for instance,or say somebody is arguing for cows' foeti as good for sexual health, I will never ever want to go near their sandals to do the equalising experiment.
Sooryo Purusha: Ushaso devi MahaaMaaya-- Very true. To that extent WE will always view Sun as a male god that you and I worship.That is our sanskar. But I was thinking from a pure literary angle, from what is archetypally associated, and not religiously, or even divine manisfestation (unless I am writing a religious piece). I mentioned MYTH as a structural device in literary creation, in terms of Northrop Frye's ANATOMY OF CRITICISM, which I had used to interpret Sri Aurobindo's massive epic, SAVITRI, for my Ph.D. (My book, SAVITRI: A SPIRITUAL EPIC, may interest you). Please do not misunderstand me, Narayanan; I never intended to hurt your, or anybody's religious feelings or sensitivites. I simply didn't think, while reading Robert's tanka, in religious terms, as it would have been not relevant to a practitioner of other religion. If he sounded different from our mythical sensibilities, it doesn't mean his own mythical sensibility should not be tolerated. In a forum like WHW, I hope differences should be promoted and tolerated.
Personally I too worship Surya, chant mantras, do yoga and pranayam, and share the same religious sensitivities you have expressed here. My Hindu faith is no different from yours even as you are more learned and knowledgeable about the tenets of the religion than I. But, in literary terms, I am also tolerant of the Western perspectives, and would not
like to mix up personal religious beliefs with poetic practices of others.
Having said this, let me assure you again I stand by you, if it comes to Religion, and I never intended to contradict you in any manner. All I wanted to say is that Robert Wilson's view or interpretation is his own literary myth which is not necessarily the Hindu view or religious view, even from Christian perspective.
Let's drink tea together without bringing in our own strong opinions, aroused by different reader responses to the poet's structure (which in Aristotlean term is muthos, or myth).
Great Thanks Professor Singh for your kindness and graceful comments despite my over reaction in this situation. Myth/ literary myth, these have to be distinguished as separate categories~ Lets drink tea togther and praise the light enveloping.
Incidentally, Professor Singh "Savitri" is a very personal book to me and Sri Aurobindo is my Guru too. He initiated me in a dream, about thirty years ago and also appeared in my dreams later. I will be eager to see your book SAVITRI: A SPIRITUAL EPIC,~ Deep regards. Narayanan. I will write to you. "Light Endless Light" !
I am glad we three have agreed to celebrate the autonomy of the poem. The poem wins. Always. Honestly, it is ultimately the poem which tests us as readers, and proves our strengths and weaknesses.
My book, SAVITRI: A SPIRITUAL EPIC, is published from Prakash Book Depot, Bara Bazar, Bareilly 243003. Last year, I published another book, SRI AUROBINDO'S SAVITRI:ESSAYS ON LOVE, LIFE AND DEATH (published by Prakash Book Depot). I see in Sri Aurobindo an amalgamation of all religions, especially Buddhism (perhaps he exceeded Buddha in his spiritual enlightenment), Christianity, and Baha'i Faith.The mythical/archetypal approach helped me appreciate his poetic sensibility in a different way, though I must also admit I do not yet fully understand his poetry. Philosophy frightens me, but his lines in the epic also contain thousands of haiku and tanka, if one could recreate them.
Surely, Sri Aurobindo is a Divine Fusion Of All Religions. It was a Revelation. But still he was a Hindu Yuga-Yogi too. It was his seamless Hindu world view that made this amalgamation possible. He was very different from the theosophists for example. I have written two sets of poems " To the Nazarene " and "Offerings to Shiva." , celebrating divine faith. About "archetypes" do you mean it in the "Platonic sense" or in the "Jungian sense": I understand you. But that is a theoretical appreciation if i may say so. Religion is a very "every moment" affair for me.Sri Aurobindo is A "Yuga Avatar" to other Yogis! I have also published two books of Philosophical Aphorisms called 1] " Kalki ~ The Last Coming ~ Apocalypse: the Eternal Aspiration " and 2] "Scrap bits from the note-books of a lunatic."
Just beautiful Robert ! I have just one objection: Sun[ Aadithya Bhagavan] is male in traditional ways. So "her children" looks little odd.Of course you can say, "sun is female in my mythogrammatical way"!I leave it open tentatively.[ Narayanan } "I think Robert is right to think of the nurturing sun as female. Myths support his stand"{ Prof RKSingh } ~ It was the use of the word "myth" that caused the tentative flare.I think word "Myth" can be used in five different ways [ tentatively i classify] ~ 1] Pre-primordial Mythologies of Unknown history and many people's personal faith. Ramayana, Bhaghavatham, Puranas Etc. [ The Greek faith and other pagan faiths were destroyed by Christian monotono theism[ Nietzsche's expression]]2] The saints' and prophets' Myth spaces which are traditional but enhanced by their presence, contributions etc. ~ Mystic poets like Sri Aurobindo and William Blake. 3] Ordinary poets who use a traditional myth and expand it into literature. There are innumerable examples. 4] The poet assumes a certain "myth-factor" tentatively for the poem at hand which has no necessary archetype but is his own personal idiocyncrasy.He may use the contradiction of his myth tomorrow in another poem.5] "Grotesque Myths" `~ Distorting classical mythology grotesquely for personal ends like calling Christ and John [ Or Krishna and Arjuna ]as homosexuals etc. I only want to clarify that Robert has used "myth" in the fourth way mentioned in this classification.
The sun in this tanka became a woman ... one that nurtures ... providing nourishment, warmth, comfort, and much more. It can, as you say, be male in expression as well.
Ushaso Mahaadevi ~ Mahaa-maaya Jyotir mati Dharma Tarangini. Saa Na Arka:
Addithyo Bhagavaan rishi ~ Anthariksho Vyoma Kumbham ~ Nireekshaya Vishnu MaayaaRahasyam Paramaartham ~ Maa kuru ku-tarkam ~ tad asabhyam moodathvam mahaan ~ Prof Singh Mytholgy is not something you can manipulate to suit your tastes. They are divine revelations. I am writing Maha-Nyaasam For all the four Vedas in Sanskrit.Will you say beef filled white man's "science" can be anything any body wants it to be. You are using the divine word "mythology" in its crudest western connotation ~ Rtam Sathyam Pavitram.If you have scant respect for Religion, and if you think with Darwin that the Gods are creations of dull primitive people, it will be better for you to keep away from it all. I am amused by your erratic interpretation. "Savitri" and "Ushus" come from the Sun. They are not Aadithya. Please have a heart professor.
Personally I too worship Surya, chant mantras, do yoga and pranayam, and share the same religious sensitivities you have expressed here. My Hindu faith is no different from yours even as you are more learned and knowledgeable about the tenets of the religion than I. But, in literary terms, I am also tolerant of the Western perspectives, and would not
like to mix up personal religious beliefs with poetic practices of others.
Having said this, let me assure you again I stand by you, if it comes to Religion, and I never intended to contradict you in any manner. All I wanted to say is that Robert Wilson's view or interpretation is his own literary myth which is not necessarily the Hindu view or religious view, even from Christian perspective.
Let's drink tea together without bringing in our own strong opinions, aroused by different reader responses to the poet's structure (which in Aristotlean term is muthos, or myth).
drinking from the same
pot of tea . . .
and no echo bouncing
between canyons
a tea ceremony ~
a butterfly comes
to purvey the kigo
My book, SAVITRI: A SPIRITUAL EPIC, is published from Prakash Book Depot, Bara Bazar, Bareilly 243003. Last year, I published another book, SRI AUROBINDO'S SAVITRI:ESSAYS ON LOVE, LIFE AND DEATH (published by Prakash Book Depot). I see in Sri Aurobindo an amalgamation of all religions, especially Buddhism (perhaps he exceeded Buddha in his spiritual enlightenment), Christianity, and Baha'i Faith.The mythical/archetypal approach helped me appreciate his poetic sensibility in a different way, though I must also admit I do not yet fully understand his poetry. Philosophy frightens me, but his lines in the epic also contain thousands of haiku and tanka, if one could recreate them.